Tattoos in Thailand, and the Best Way to Fire a Bad Client (BRUTAL!)
“The best morning routine, the best diet, the best workout routine is the one you actually follow.” On a not-safe-for-work episode of Travel Punks, I talk to Paul Greenamyer about how important it is to choose a mentor - including authors and coaches - that you like, respect, and connect with. That way, you will be more motivated to follow their lead. There’s no shame in failing to connect with a mentor - even a popular one. Keep looking until someone clicks.
We get into some freewheeling stories, including tales of my travels in Asia. We also reminisce about my childhood in Pennsylvania, getting drunk in the back of limos. We weren’t rich - our family friends had a chauffeur company, with limos you could rent for weddings or the prom, and we abused the hell out of that hookup. Yeah, I got my drinking out of my system early …
We also talk about …
- How the traditional system of higher education is failing students, and what to do about it.
- How micro-niched coaching is gaining credibility, and how to find the right program to fast-track your career aspirations.
- When to fire a bad client, and the reason I give them for the firing, which is simultaneously polite and scathing.
- How I need to make more of an effort to seek out local hockey rinks when I travel.
About the Host: Paul Greenamyer is the host of the Travel Punks.
Paul Greenamyer: Today’s guest on the “Travel Punks” podcast is Dylan Ogline, founder of Ogline Digital, and the laptop entrepreneur training program Agency 2.0, which teaches aspiring entrepreneurs to build lean, mean, and scrappy six-figure digital agencies so they can quit their dead-end jobs, travel the world, and live life to the fullest. We talk about what it’s like to run your business from the terrace of a Bangkok condo, shit on Boomers for the 11 millionth time, contemplate the end of the orthodox system of American education, and reminisce about his childhood spent getting drunk in the back of limos that were owned by his friend’s family-owned chauffeur company in Pennsylvania. To learn more about him, and from him, check out dylanogline.com. That’s D-Y-L-A-N-O-G-L-I-N-E.com.
In addition to following our podcast, make sure to follow the “Travel Punks” YouTube channel, hit the bell icon so you get notifications of our new videos, follow the “Travel Punks” on Facebook, and on Instagram follow @creditcarson and @paulgreenamyer. We talk about some garbage that we don’t want actually in the podcast because it’s completely uninteresting. Then Tristan can edit it, and that’ll be nice.
Dylan Ogline: Tristan your edit guy?
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah. He’s really, really, really good.
Dylan Ogline: I’ve got to be honest, man, this will be like podcast-- what the fuck is up with my chord?-- this would be like podcast number 30 for me.
Paul Greenamyer: Getting good at it?
Dylan Ogline: This is the one I am most excited for.
Paul Greenamyer: Because I’m not going to ask you about digital ads?
Dylan Ogline: You’re not going to ask me about marketing. I mean we could obviously go in whatever direction you want to go in, but I presume we’re going to be like talking about travel, and we’re going to say “shit” and “fuck”.
Paul Greenamyer: I do like saying shit and fuck. I’m sure you saw that in my YouTube videos and podcasts.
Dylan Ogline: Oh, in your YouTube videos.
Paul Greenamyer: You’re like, “Yes! These are my people! Finally!”
Dylan Ogline: Yeah, absolutely, man. I watched your Citi Prestige card. Like you can fucking kill somebody with this card.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah. Yeah yeah. You can slit someone’s throat. It’s made of metal. It’s pretty slender. And I just get such an insane probably pornographic satisfaction out of just smacking those metal cards against tables. It’s just the most satisfying thing.
Dylan Ogline: This has got to be cut out of the podcast, and not to interrupt you, but…
Paul Greenamyer: Well, we’ll see about that. If you want it out, it’s out, don’t worry about that.
Dylan Ogline: No, I tell my girlfriend like when I pull out the platinum card. I’m like, “I am fully erect right now.”
Paul Greenamyer: We’ll talk about whether or not that should stay in because I fucking love that. But do other podcasters ask you to watch your language? They’re like, “By the way, this is a family-friendly podcast.”
Dylan Ogline: I always ask because one time I did… I don’t think you’ve seen it yet with a lady, and I said “damn,” and she was like, “Oh, we try to keep this PG-13.” That was like number three for me or something.
Paul Greenamyer: You can say like three “fucks” and still have a PG-13 now. We are a culture of degenerates.
Dylan Ogline: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. No, so since then I always, just to respect the host, I mean I know that you’re going to be fucking down with it, but just to respect the host I’m always like, “What is your length? What do you like to keep things as? And do you allow swearing?” I’m like, “Can I say ‘damn it’? Can I say ‘fuck’? Or do you want me to keep it very tame?” And, I mean you’ve probably listened to the more extreme ones. I’m not like, “Fucking shit yes!”
Paul Greenamyer: We are indulging ourselves a little bit right now.
Dylan Ogline: Yes.
Paul Greenamyer: Drunk with the power.
Dylan Ogline: Yeah, it’s not like crazy, but sometimes I will drop a “shit” or something.
Paul Greenamyer: Sometimes it’s fun. I mean my cousin, who’s in the Navy, decried how common swear words had become in the culture because he thought they served an actual purpose. Where if someone needs to get to the four-deck right fucking now, then you want to be able to have that cultural power…
Dylan Ogline: Emphasis.
Paul Greenamyer: …still within the swear word. Whereas if it’s just being used to emphasize every single world. Like that’s fucking amazing that you brought a bottle opener! Like that is not fucking amazing.
Dylan Ogline: It kind of loses its touch.
Paul Greenamyer: That’s pretty standard. Yeah. So I don’t like people to repeat themselves where it’s like, “Tell again the same story that you told me that I already know about.” But I think it’s a good jumping off point. I want to hear again the story about that 18-year-old dude that you mentored and who asked you about the digital nomad lifestyle.
Dylan Ogline: Is this the show now? Are we already in the show?
Paul Greenamyer: We’ve been recording.
Dylan Ogline: You don’t even do an intro. Wow. You’re an animal.
Paul Greenamyer: I am animal.
Dylan Ogline: Okay. All right.
Paul Greenamyer: I’m going to pre-record a little intro, so people will know what’s going on if they’ve gotten this far.
Dylan Ogline: I’m not going to waste my time listening to your podcast, to be honest. You suck.
Paul Greenamyer: No one does really.
Dylan Ogline: I only looked at your YouTube, I think, and there’s one with some girl, but she was actually in-person, and I’m like, “Oh, man. I’m so jealous of that.” Like sitting across from somebody and doing a podcast.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah, I like doing it that way.
Dylan Ogline: Yeah. So the context. So for listeners out there who don’t know. I was mentoring this like 18, 19-year-old kid, and he was just like a family friend, essentially. I actually think I talked to him recently. This is probably like a year or two ago, and he worked at like a dead-end job. I think he worked at Dunkin’ Donuts. Like he’s making seven, eight bucks an hour. And I take him out, we’re going to grab coffee, and he’s just like bouncing like ideas off of me. He’s like, “I want your life. Like I want to be able to travel. I want to be able to see the world. I don’t want to just spend the rest of my life in this town.” He wants to make a little bit more money, but he doesn’t necessarily want to make big bucks, it’s just like, “I just want to get out of this town,” and like the idea of being somewhere for like three months and working while I’m there but still being able to explore the city like that was his dream.
And the question he eventually asked me is like, “Is it as cool as I think it is? Like is it really that cool?” And I’m like, “Dude, no, it’s not. Like no matter how high your expectation is, like if your expectation is it’s going to be life-changing, it’s going to be the coolest thing ever, no matter how high the expectation is, it is too damn low.” Like it is beyond anything that I could ever put words into. Being able to be in some random far off city, and be outside the United States, be outside your comfort zone, and knowing that you have several weeks, a month, two months, where you can just explore the city, the culture at leisure. Can’t put words into it. Can’t put words into it just how incredible and amazing that is.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah, and at the time, you must have been talking about Thailand or at least thinking about Thailand because that was the most recent big trip you took. We’re both Tim Ferriss fans. Do you think about them as mini retirements?
Dylan Ogline: No. I never think of it that way. I think whenever he used that term, that’s more for kind of convincing people that have like a full-time job or something. Not people who like own their own business or something like that. So no, I don’t think of it. And for context, I think whenever I had that conversation with that guy, this was like two weeks after I got back from Thailand. So yeah, I think we probably were talking about Thailand at the time.
Paul Greenamyer: Did you go to Thailand by yourself?
Dylan Ogline: Yes.
Paul Greenamyer: And you were in Bangkok, and Chiang Mai, where else? Don’t even remember it. Don’t remember the names?
Dylan Ogline: I am horrendous at remembering city names. I’ve been to a ton of like small places in Europe and whatnot. I couldn’t tell you any of it. Like I remember like the Athens, and the Romes of the travels, but outside of that, I’m like, “I don’t know what that place was called.” But most of that trip was, I think I spent one or two days in was that Hong Kong? I think it was Hong Kong.
Paul Greenamyer: Hong Kong. Yeah, my cousin in the Navy, his favorite cities of all time in the world-- I don’t know if it’s changed since then, it’s been a while since we talked about this-- but his favorites were Hong Kong and Tokyo. And he and I are very different guys. I went to Tokyo, and I liked it, but it wasn’t one of my favorites, but also I think I just kind of went at the wrong time. And also I was just kind of testing the waters of my own digital entrepreneur lifestyle. And the person that I came there to visit, she also lived kind of far out of the city center, so I think if I had like lived in the center of the shit it might have been a little bit different.
Dylan Ogline: A little bit different.
Paul Greenamyer: But her attitude was like, “Why are you working so much?” And I’m like, “Shut up! I’m trying to do something! I’m trying to prove something to everyone!” But I did get to do some sightseeing.
Dylan Ogline: That you could work.
Paul Greenamyer: Yes, absolutely. And I’m curious because you seem to have gotten a lot out of your Thailand experience. I was curious to what your work schedule, your work day in Thailand was like.
Dylan Ogline: It’s pretty much the same as what it is here. Like I think you and I had talked about this earlier. My goal for 2020 was to spend, I think it was 90 days nonstop outside the country. And like I wanted to spend 30 days nonstop in Japan. It would have looked pretty similar to like what I’m doing now. Probably a little bit more exploring. I still work like 40 hours a week. To me it’s not necessarily the amount of work. I could certainly work a lot less. To me, it’s the freedom to work on what you want when you want, and pre-COVID, where you want.
Because I’m passionate about my work. I like to do something productive. But I hate the idea of being constricted and like I have to work nine hours today or eight hours today. Like the whole 9:00 to 5:00 concept, which I’ve done it a little bit, drove me insane and I could never go back to that. I still work the same amount of hours, but it’s like this afternoon, my girlfriend and I, the weather’s nice, I have a break between any kind of calls or anything. I’m like, “We’re going to go for a little hike.” That’s mission critical in my life.
Paul Greenamyer: But being a business owner is its own thing. I mean sometimes there are calls that you have to make, deadlines that you have to make, podcasts that you have to appear on. Bunch of assholes you got to talk to.
Dylan Ogline: I got to talk to these like annoying people. Well only one. I love most of the podcasts, yeah. I think if you’re a business owner, you can fall into the trap of-- I don’t have a good term for it-- but it’s mostly an addiction to being available. So it took me time with my business to like put roles and systems in place where like some of my team know my phone number, like my actual personal cellphone number. They have never used it. They’ve never needed to. But like they know if the world’s collapsing then you call me, otherwise I never want to talk to you. Send me an email, most of the time I’m like that’s probably good enough. Like if it’s mission critical, like the world’s falling apart, call me, but otherwise just send me an email and I’ll probably get back to you in a day or two.
With a lot of business owners, they become addicted to being available. It’s like notifications on like Facebook, and Snapchat, and Instagram, and stuff like that. Like you become addicted to like constantly people like, “Hey, hey, we want to talk to you.” That gets addicting, and you have to actively fight that. So as a business owner…
Paul Greenamyer: And I have-- go ahead, I’m sorry.
Dylan Ogline: Go ahead.
Paul Greenamyer: Well, on the leading edge of the Millennial generation, I have a thoroughly Millennial aversion to phone calls, which by their nature have to happen right now. And I know some older generations see a phone call as being more respectful. I’m not quite sure why. Maybe it’s because they think it gets done quicker instead of a lot of back and forth. But, to me, that’s just like someone showing up into my apartment or in my house. And back when I had a sales career that was more revolving around the phone and being available, I felt compelled to answer my phone at all hours of the night. And I didn’t have to, that was entirely coming from inside of met hat I was like, “This could be money. I need to answer.”
Dylan Ogline: Most of the time is.
Paul Greenamyer: But I would have to pick up the phone, I would have to perform, it didn’t matter how I was feeling. And it got to the point where I was like literally hiding under a table away from my phone.
Dylan Ogline: It’s depressing.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah.
Dylan Ogline: Like my phone, 100% of the time is on vibrate, and it is on Do Not Disturb. So I have an iPhone, and you can set the Do Not Disturb, I think they’re called favorites. So like if my girlfriend calls me, or some of my family members, they call me, or like my team are in there. Like if they call me it’ll bypass that Do Not Disturb. There’s like nine people in that favorite list, otherwise if you’re not on that list, it immediately goes to voicemail, I never see the notification. Like you have to take the steps to block that device off. And, again, I think going back if you’re a business owner or you’re self-employed, you’re always like, “Oh, that could be a sale coming in.” But, dude, what’s the purpose of doing this? What’s the purpose of having your own business if you’re constantly checking your email, or checking your texts, or checking your phone?
Paul Greenamyer: Sorry, there’s also an aspect of cutting the chord and letting people and empowering the people on your team to do their jobs and letting them understand that they are capable. That’s going to make them better at their jobs.
Dylan Ogline: 100%. Like I think you and I have talked about this before like with my team members, in the beginning I’m like I’m 100% available to you if I’m onboarding somebody. But I come out an I tell them like, “If I don’t talk to you for like six months, that’s awesome. I don’t want you to think that you can send me a Skype message, you can do this, you can reach out to me if you need to. But like the ideal thing is like I want to teach you how to do your job, but I want you to figure out how to do it better and just do it. Like I want to empower you to do your job. And if I never hear from you, that’s awesome.” And I think a lot of people appreciate that.
Going back, one other thing is, when it comes to like all these interruptions, you can’t do like good quality creative work if somebody’s constantly pinging you, or you’re constantly checking your email. I think Paul Graham wrote it, it’s a “Managers Versus Makers Schedule.” Have you ever read that?
Paul Greenamyer: No, I haven’t.
Dylan Ogline: It’s like 500 words.
Paul Greenamyer: So it’s just a quote? Is it a book?
Dylan Ogline: No, no. Well, that’s a really long quote if it’s 500 words.
Paul Greenamyer: Okay.
Dylan Ogline: No, it’s just like a short essay that he wrote. Again, I think it’s Paul Graham. If you just Google “managers versus makers schedule,” it’s just this really short thing that like talks about how people that are doing kind of creative work-- whether it’s coding, or writing, or presentations, or anything like that-- if you’re doing creative work, you need to get really a deep dive into it. And just hearing that ping on your computer of like when an email comes in, like that’s enough to kick you out of that focused zone. And I think a lot of people are shifting more to creative type of work. And I think it just gets more and more important to cut the chord, man.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah. I had to set expectations with some of my own clients because I communicate with a lot of them over chat. But if they don’t really know who they’re talking to, they get into the headspace that they’re talking to chat support. They’re so used to 24-hour chat support-- some of them, not all of them-- but if I don’t respond to them in like five minutes they’ll be like, “Hello?” And sometimes I come back after being away for 20 minutes. It’s like, “I guess you’re not interested.” It was actually very passive aggressive a couple of times. I’m like, “Hi. I was at the gym. I was eating lunch. I answer my own shit.”
Dylan Ogline: I have a life. Yeah, maybe I was in the shower.
Paul Greenamyer: Well sometimes if I do get in the zone then I will keep people waiting for an hour, or I even said that wrong. I mean multiple hours that I don’t get back to people. And if it’s mission critical for them, then I guess they’ll move on or if it’s important enough for them to work with me, then I guess they’ll wait and you can’t win them all.
Dylan Ogline: 100%, man. I’m really big into-- you probably heard me talk about this before-- firing bad clients.
Paul Greenamyer: Oh yeah. And that’s a big Tim Ferriss thing, and a big everyone thing.
Dylan Ogline: Yeah, if I had like a live chat-- which I don’t with any of my clients-- but if I had like a live chat thing or if they could contact me on Skype or something, and they send me a message, and then like 20 minutes later they’re like, “Hello?” Boom, that’s done. Relationship done. I might give you one other chance, but I don’t want to work with those types of people. So me, I would be like, “Listen, I think you’re a great person, I think your company is awesome, but I don’t think that we’re necessarily a great culture fit.” That’s an excuse I’ve used a lot.
Paul Greenamyer: I love that.
Dylan Ogline: I don’t think our cultures match up.
Paul Greenamyer: I might actually have to use that in a call that I have in like an hour and a half.
Dylan Ogline: Fantastic, man. Use it and cut those people. That allows you to get better and deliver better quality work to people. I also think it’s just it’s so important to set rules. Like these are our standards. Think of it this way, like I go to Chipotle a lot, like I’m a Chipotle fan boy. If I go to Chipotle and I’m like, “Yo, I want a burrito with lobster.” They’re going to be like, “We don’t serve lobster.” “Well, I want lobster.” They’d probably kick me out after a little bit. Like they’re not going to go and make me lobster.
There’s a little bit of variation, I’m sure. Like can I have some extra tomatoes on that or something? But so many business owners, they get caught up, and so being so desperate for the next job, or to bring in the revenue, that they allow their clients to walk all over them. And because they allow that, then they end up delivering poor quality.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah, I like telling people that things are policy at this point.
Dylan Ogline: “It’s company policy, I’m sorry.”
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah, it’s company policy. That just reminds me, it’s kind of unrelated, but I got to dish about this for a second. Because I’m having an influx because my money business is writing. But I’m having an influx of people trying to get me to like write their exam essays for classes.
Dylan Ogline: Really? That’s a thing?
Paul Greenamyer: Really. Yeah, it’s such a thing.
Dylan Ogline: I’d do that in college too.
Paul Greenamyer: Oh yeah? See, yeah, it’s like the plot of a bad college comedy or a high school comedy. There’s the jock getting the nerd to write his essays so he can keep his grades up to compete in the big game, but then they get caught, and they get stuck in Jumanji, and that’s the plot.
Dylan Ogline: For reference out there, for listeners, I’m actually a high school dropout, so I didn’t go to college.
Paul Greenamyer: Ah, yes, so you avoided all of those comedy tropes.
Dylan Ogline: I avoided having the jocks tell me to write their essays.
Paul Greenamyer: Well, I hope that people listening to this are inspired that we’re just such dicks that we’re like, “You know what? I don’t need your money.” There’s such liberation in being like, “I don’t need your money.” And you don’t have to have a lot of money to benefit from that. I mean, even if things are a little tight, even if you are just starting up like how much do you want to suffer? You can choose how much you suffer at the outset. And some of the people who are the most picky, they’ll end up leaving you a bad testimonial because you didn’t hop to.
Dylan Ogline: Absolutely, dude! 100%.
Paul Greenamyer: Long term it’s absolutely not. Go ahead.
Dylan Ogline: No, I was going to say, it’s almost counterintuitive. It’s not necessarily like, “Oh, I don’t want your money.” Because I’ve gotten that feedback before. I have fired bad clients and their response was basically like, “Must be nice to turn down work. Or to have so much work coming in.”
Paul Greenamyer: Oh, that’s delicious. Nom nom nom, I love that.
Dylan Ogline: That’s not the point. The point is, is that I service multiple people. I can’t deliver good quality or do what I need to do if you’re constantly being an asshole to me. Like again, there’s a certain level of, sure, I’ll work with a client, but if you’re just going to be a dick, like dude, go away. Like you’re not a good culture fit. And, again, it’s counterintuitive where some people are like, “I want to get to the point where I can turn away work or have so much work I don’t need the money.” I argue that by turning away those people you actually make more money. Like it’ll make you better, your clients are customers that do appreciate you that are your ideal people. You’ll be able to deliver a better product or service whatever to that person. They’ll appreciate more and they’ll come back more and more.
Paul Greenamyer: That’s so true and that’s so hard to hear for people who are at the beginning who are worried about where the next meal’s going to come from, or how soon they can quit the job that they hate, and you must have had to cope with a lot of that through your coaching program where you’re teaching people to do what you do, which is run digital agencies.
Dylan Ogline: Yeah.
Paul Greenamyer: Where people are just like, “What do I do about this person? They want me to like touch my toes and dance like a ballerina. Like what should I do about that?” And if your response is like, “Fire them,” they’re like, “Well, I can’t let them go, they’re business.”
Dylan Ogline: It’s one of like the first things that I talk to people about because it’s easier to have never become a drunk than it is to quit being an alcoholic.
Paul Greenamyer: Man, where were you ten years ago for me?
Dylan Ogline: You know what? I had a drinking problem probably when I was like 17. I grew up like my parents were feeding me booze on like school nights. That’s a different story.
Paul Greenamyer: That is quite the round table you came from in Pennsylvania.
Dylan Ogline: Yes.
Paul Greenamyer: I think I stole booze from my parents’ liquor cabinet like once in suburban California, and if my dad’s listening to it, that’s probably the first he heard about it right now. Sorry, Dad.
Dylan Ogline: This is absolutely a true story. My parents’ friends owned a limo company. Like it was a really small town, like they had like older limos, and people would rent them for prom or whatever. And like every Wednesday I think it was, they had a son, he was like a year older than me, so like we got along. And I’m like 12, 11, 12, 13 at this time. Like on Wednesday nights, school nights, we would all get in the limo and drive like an hour to go eat at some restaurant, and they would give me booze. Like typically it was like Mike’s Hard Lemonade or beer. And I’m like 12 or 13 and I would get drunk on school nights, I didn’t know any better, and go to school the next day with a hangover. Like that was me at 12 or 13. Didn’t expect talking about that on this show.
Paul Greenamyer: Well, it’s all about the fun here at the “Travel Punks.” But if that had been my reality in school, it might have seemed to be more of a living reality that I didn’t have to like walk this story. That everyone lives and that I pretty fervently believe is a trap or is more of a trap than people realize. The story of the go to school, get good grades, get a college degree, get a good job, you’ll have it made, get a Masters degree. And I keep track in my mind, I’m like keeping score about how people used to, like in my parents’ generation, like getting a high school degree would get you a job. Then it was Bachelors degree, then it was Masters. I’m like is no one worried about this? What’s it going to be next-- two Masters degrees? Ph.D.? It’s like inflation faster than the currency. Our education is getting inflated and devalued because everyone has a degree.
Dylan Ogline: I would actually argue we’re at a tipping point. I think we have reached a point with technology and whatnot where more and more people are creating training programs courses, like me, and this is self-serving, by all means. But more and more people are creating training programs, creating courses, that are very niched down and specific where I’m not even going to talk about myself because again, that’s self-serving. You can go take a $2,000, $3,000, $4,000 course, training program, and learn how to start a bookkeeping business that makes $200,000, $300,000 a year. I personally know people who have done that.
I know people who sell or are extremely successful at having those programs. Photographers, you don’t need to go to college to be a photographer, and that can go in a hundred different directions. I think the definition of work is changing. I think the definition of education is changing. There’s going to be a lot more people who are like, “I want to start a digital marketing agency.” I’m going to serve myself here so shameless self-promotion.
Paul Greenamyer: We can totally talk about your digital marketing agency and your training. It’s called Agency 2.0. You don’t have to talk about it, I’ll talk about it. It’s called Agency 2.0 and it’s a program to teach people to run lean, six-figure…
Dylan Ogline: Lean and scrappy.
Paul Greenamyer: Lean, mean, and scrappy digital agencies where they can build a six-figure, seven-figure laptop lifestyle like the inimitable Dylan Ogline.
Dylan Ogline: Yes.
Paul Greenamyer: You can grow up to be just like him.
Dylan Ogline: Just like me. I would argue that there’s going to be so many people, like that kid I was talking about, who are going to realize like why would I go spend $100,000 on a college education, go into all this debt, when I can take these programs, these training programs, these courses. And there is some scammy shit out there, but a lot of it’s really good quality. I’ve personally taken a lot of it. I’ve taken a bunch of courses. I invest a lot in education. I invest a lot in master minds. It’s really good stuff and it’s now gotten to the point where it’s so niched down and so specific that you can have a very targeted interest. You could want to start a food blog, and there are training programs out there on how to teach you how to start and grow your own food blog.
Paul Greenamyer: And those training programs get a reputation for being a little bit scammy because they’re not accredited, pretty much anyone can put one together, you’ve got to look into who you’re learning from and whether or not they actually do the thing that you’re trying to learn how to do. And also, I mean, I think that so many of these programs you got to decide whether it’s right for you. Like I took some of these programs as well, and many cases there is just maybe not a good fit. They had a good sales pitch, but the way they were teaching was not well suited for the product, or maybe it just wasn’t going to be my thing. I was like, “Well, this is interesting, and I can see how it works.” But I don’t have the fire to make this work, and that can seem like it’s a scam if it doesn’t work for everyone.
But my trump card is that the most expensive scam education that I personally imbibed that ended up not producing any results for me was an Ivy League education. Because I have an Ivy League degree that I ended up going on to do nothing with. And that’s a long story in and of itself, but because it’s part of that story. Like if you get into that school, who doesn’t go to that fucking school, and everyone assumes you’ve got it made. But my journey ended up being so much strange than that. And, in a way, I wouldn’t change it, but I also wouldn’t mind having that tuition back.
Dylan Ogline: It’s a lot of wasted money. Quick comment, you were talking about like the scammy. I think I would advise to people if you’re looking at a training program to start your own digital agency with Agency 2.0 with Dylan Ogline, or you’re looking to people who have bookkeeping courses, or the food blog people. Literally there’s a million different courses out there. I think what’s most important is not their pitch, none of that. Look at the person. Do you feel like you would vibe with them? Which is I know that’s not specific, but like when you’re listening to their videos, don’t look at it and be like, “Oh, that motivates me.” Or like, “Oh, that sounds so exciting.”
Like do you think the person’s cool? Like would you sit down and like have a beer with that person or a cup of coffee? Like does that apply to that person? Because I think a lot of it comes down to motivation and like the coaching aspect. And if you just like hate the sound of the person’s voice, or you’re like, “That person’s so annoying,” you’re probably not going to be motivated to follow the advice. But if you’re like, “That person’s so cool. Like I really like that person,” I think that goes a long way. Similar to like selecting a college, like a college that like the environment excites you, it’s the same concept.
Paul Greenamyer: That’s so true. And I remember you saying something similar to that in a different podcast, and it got me thinking because I connected really hard with Tim Ferriss. I know you did too, but then there’s guys like Gary Vaynerchuk, who I know that a lot of people respect him. Obviously, he’s a very high performer, he’s very inspirational to a lot of people, but I would just rather swallow glass than listen to him. I’m just like, “Ooh, this guy rubs me the wrong way.” And he probably wouldn’t be mad at me for saying that because he knows that he rubs some people the wrong way.
Dylan Ogline: Absolutely.
Paul Greenamyer: More power to him. If you get results from this approach. Another one is Grant Cardone, I mean I just get exhausted listening to him where he’s like the 10X, always be running at walls.
Dylan Ogline: He’s always like roar! He’s like always pumped up.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah, it’s great if that works for some people, and if for some people that’s the kick in the ass they need. But if I tried to operate at that level I would’ve burnt out. And what’s in my room on a little chalk board, I don’t have a lot of like-- what do you call them?
Dylan Ogline: Books?
Paul Greenamyer: I have a lot of books, I don’t have a lot of meditations, or like affirmations that I say, or that I keep written down. I don’t do a lot of that, but the one thing I have on a chalkboard in my room is something that I heard from Tim Ferriss somewhere. I associate it with him, maybe it was one of his “Tools for Titans” things, but it’s “No hurry, no pause.” And I was like, “That’s me. No hurry, no pause.”
Dylan Ogline: That sounds like a Ryan Holiday one.
Paul Greenamyer: Oh yeah? Maybe it was.
Dylan Ogline: Don’t quote me on that.
Paul Greenamyer: I’m sure Ryan Holiday was in “Tools of Titans.” I mean fucking everybody-- I mean you were probably in “Tools of Titans.” Were all in “Tools of Titans” and we don’t know it. We’re all making Tim money talking about him right now.
Dylan Ogline: I will consider myself successful-- write this down, put it in the record books-- if I am on “The Tim Ferris Show” or in the next “Tools of Titans 2.0,” that’s when I’ll know if I’ve made it.
Paul Greenamyer: But you would never hear Grant Cardone talking about no hurry, no pause. It would be no pause, and by all means, hurry would be the Grant Cardone version.
Dylan Ogline: Yeah, you better hustle, and all that stuff. But, yeah, so like you said, like Gary V is really motivational to a lot of people. But if it just doesn’t rub you the right way. Like I heard somebody talking once about it’s similar to like morning routines. I was at like a master mind, and the person was talking about like, “What morning routine do you follow? And like who do you follow for morning routine? And like I’m looking for the best morning routine.”
And it’s like the best morning routine, the best diet, the business advice, the best workout is one that you actually follow, one that you actually do. Like there’s a million different variations of workouts, or morning routines, or business practices. Like they’re all probably pretty good. What matters is which one do you actually follow, stick to, and actually take action with? And a lot of that just comes down to who you vibe with, who like you liked to listen to.
And Gary V, I’m 100% sure he has a really unique, great sounding, incredibly advice. But if you’re annoyed by his voice and listening to him, you’re not going to listen to the advice. I might have a great training program, but if you hate the sound of my voice, or you’re like, “I want to punch that guy in the face,” you’re probably not going to take any action with my training program, so don’t buy it.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah.
Dylan Ogline: Buy the one where you’re like, “I like this guy,” or, “I like this girl.”
Paul Greenamyer: And that positivity is so important because there’s this tribal mentality of people are like, “Oh, you don’t like Gary V? Well, you’re going to fail.” I’m like, “Mm, no.” And when I was younger and not sure whether I was going to be able to pull off the kind of lifestyle that I wanted, then I would take that to heart. I was like, “Really? Maybe I am going to fail. Maybe I’m doomed because I don’t like Gary Vaynerchuk, or because I can’t 10X like Grant Cardone every minute of the day.”
Or, I mean, I remember Tim was like, “When interviewing people, everyone said they were morning people, everyone said they were early risers.” I was thrilled when a high performer was a night owl because I was like because Tim was a night owl, and I relate to that. And he was like, “Wow, you actually can have a successful life if you don’t wake up at 4:30 in the morning. If it works for you, do it.”
Dylan Ogline: At least 5:00 AM. Yeah, if you don’t wake up by 5:00 AM…
Paul Greenamyer: You’re a loser?
Dylan Ogline: Absolutely.
Paul Greenamyer: Okay. Good to know.
Dylan Ogline: Get a life. I get my Tim Ferriss collection’s like over there.
Paul Greenamyer: If you need to reference, take a moment.
Dylan Ogline: No, I think is it “Tools of Titans” where like he asked like the same questions to all these people? Is that the one?
Paul Greenamyer: It’s either “Tools of Titans” Or “Tribe of Mentors.” I get those confused. They both have “of” in the title and the same number of syllables. I’m sure he split-tested that.
Dylan Ogline: 100%. Yeah. But no, like looking for commonalities like meditation, or waking up early, or you’re trying to bust out this creative work first thing in the morning. Like looking for ideas from different people is a fantastic idea. But a perfect example for me is like you talk to Tim and he will tell you like if you’re a writer, you’re doing creative work, like the first thing in the morning you should do that stuff. Like you should spend one to two hours first thing in the morning. That just doesn’t work for me. Like for me, I like to bust out my email, check all the notifications, get that stuff out of the way, and then I have the discipline where I’m like, “I’m not going to check that stuff for the rest of the day. Now I’m going to do my creative work.” Of course every now and then I have like these annoying podcasts that I have to do.
Paul Greenamyer: Talk to some assholes.
Dylan Ogline: Yeah, talk to this asshole Paul guy. But other than that, like I bust out that stuff in the morning, and then I do the creative work. You talk to Tim and like that’s the exact opposite advice of what he would say, and a lot of other people are the same way. Where like they do their creative work in the morning. Me, I like to get the requirements for the day done, and then handle my creative work. I just found what works best for me so.
Paul Greenamyer: I appreciate that. This is going to be a weird question, but my “Travel Punks” partner Carson is going to kill me if I don’t ask it. So your business with Ogline Digital revolves around setting people’s digital ad for them, and you take a percentage over and above, which is one of the things that Agency 2.0. teaches people to do-- run digital ads for people.
Dylan Ogline: Yes.
Paul Greenamyer: When Facebook charges a credit card to be like, “This is what you spent on ads,” are they charging Dylan Ogline’s credit card or the client?
Dylan Ogline: They charge the client.
Paul Greenamyer: Oh. I can see why that’s important from a risk assessment standpoint.
Dylan Ogline: You’re thinking like, “Oh my God, this guy travels from all the points.”
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah. Aw shit. That would have been so fucking nice!
Dylan Ogline: It would be.
Paul Greenamyer: Oh my God.
Dylan Ogline: It’s not worth the risk.
Paul Greenamyer: Go ahead.
Dylan Ogline: There’s so much ad spend going through that it’s just not worth it. I’ve thought about it especially because I was listening to a couple of your YouTube videos, you were talking about like the American Express cards, which is unfortunately what I use now. My favorite card is the Chase Ink card.
Paul Greenamyer: Oh yeah.
Dylan Ogline: And they give you three times points on advertising spend, which is Facebook or Google, up to I think it’s $300,000 a year.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah.
Dylan Ogline: So you can get basically a million points off of $300,000 in spend. Well, as much ad spend as we’re managing, like that’s no big deal. And for context for listeners out there, what we do is we charge the client 10% of whatever their ad spend is. So say the client spends a total of $25,000 between Facebook and Google ads. At the end of the month, we will then send them an invoice for $2,500. They spend $80,000, we send them an invoice for then $8,000. We charge them 10% of whatever we managed.
Paul Greenamyer: And the beauty of that is that it’s basically the same amount of work for the $25,000 worth of ad spend as it is for the $80,000 worth of ad spend, even though it’s more than three times as much volume.
Dylan Ogline: Absolutely. Facebook’s a little bit more of a pain in the ass. But once you get it going for…
Paul Greenamyer: I’m sure they’ll be devastated.
Dylan Ogline: Oh yeah, I’m sure.
Paul Greenamyer: They’ll be devastated to hear.
Dylan Ogline: Mark’s going to go cry. Once you get it going for the client, like when we onboard a client, we’re trying to make it profitable, et cetera. Trying to figure out like the copy, and what images work, and like what the end customer’s looking for, et cetera. There is some trial and error. It takes a lot of time in the beginning, but once you get it, like you said if it works at $25,000 a month, with Google you just add four times the budget, with Facebook you just copy your ads four times and boom. Essentially that’s pretty much what you’re doing and most of the work is in the beginning, and then scaling it up isn’t the problem.
Paul Greenamyer: And the cool thing is that you’re working with the same genre of customers if we’re following your Agency 2.0 advice. You’re working with the same kinds of businesses, so once you figure it out for one business it’s so much quicker to follow the same winning formula with a similar business.
Dylan Ogline: Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things I teach is to niche down. Everybody talks about niching down. But I apply that to my business and I apply that to what I teach. If you’re doing ads for, an example I always use is like plastic surgeons. If then all you do is you’re helping plastic surgeons get more patients, then you’re just bouncing around from different regions, like you have clients in Florida and then you have clients in, say Texas, and then you have some in New York. What worked in Florida is probably going to work for the client in Texas. What worked in Texas is probably going to work for the client in New York. You learn what the end customer’s needs and desires are.
I like to say if you could describe the customer’s problem better than they can, they will automatically assume that you have the solution. And that’s like the holy grail of marketing like if you can figure that out. And if you get it to be profitable with one client, you’re going to get better, and better, and better. You’re going to scale up, you’re going to continue to get better and better. And then as you add more clients it’s just it’s a snowball effect. It feeds on itself.
Paul Greenamyer: That’s awesome. I’m sorry to hear that you don’t get the 3X points or the 4X points on the hundreds of thousands of dollars in ad spend that are flowing through Ogline Digital every month. But I also don’t want you to be on the hook for a $100,000 bill from Facebook. And also, once you get to the point where you have like a seven-figure agency from seven clients, like boot strapping your airfare becomes less of a stress, I would think. The only fun thing is that with that many points, it’s just so much more efficient to book business class and first class with points. Because even if you can afford to spend ten times as much on a cash seat in business class, why would you do it when it’s only twice as much or three times as much for points? That’s just basic economics. One thing is getting you more value.
Dylan Ogline: I’ve never done business class.
Paul Greenamyer: You’re going to go over to the dark side.
Dylan Ogline: That’s what I’m worried about. I’m worried that if I do it once I will feel uncomfortable going back.
Paul Greenamyer: Well, let me reassure you, that that’s so fucking true. That will absolutely happen. I was afraid to go over to the dark side. You know what? I’m not a bitch, I can still pack a long haul economy. But now I’m looking, now I’m shopping, especially when I wanted to go to Turkey and I was thinking about, “Well, is it possible to socially distance on a plane?” And let me just caveat that I feel very fortunate to have made it back from that trip without COVID. I was in a couple of airports where I was like, “This is not good. If one of these people is in trouble, we’re all in trouble.” So I definitely had mixed feelings about that. But it was certainly a lot easier to socially distance in business class than it was in economy, I’ll tell you that right now.
Dylan Ogline: But I think the circulated air is the bigger problem there.
Paul Greenamyer: The newer planes with the filtration system.
Dylan Ogline: I know they filter it out.
Paul Greenamyer: The newer planes with the filtration systems actually recycle the air very efficiently, but that’s when you’re in the air. Its not when you’re in the ground, and it’s certainly not when you’re in the customs line in the airport.
Dylan Ogline: Yeah.
Paul Greenamyer: So it’s a little bit hairy, and now that we’re coming in on a vaccine, I feel a little bit iffy about doing that again.
Dylan Ogline: Are you going to do the vaccine?
Paul Greenamyer: I’m leaning yes. I’m leaning yes because I’m not a scientist, but it seems like the safety data is pretty good, and I’m just probably so low priority that there’ll be some more safety data on the market by the time it’s widely available. I’m not an anti-vaxxer in general.
Dylan Ogline: In general?
Paul Greenamyer: Mostly I want it to be over. Yeah, I’m vaccinated. And if I were to have children, I’d probably vaccinate them. But I just kind of want it to be over. So I reserve the right to change my mind if new shit comes to light, but currently I’m pro put that shit in me.
Dylan Ogline: Give me the juice.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah. Let’s go to Thailand as we’re finishing it out a little bit. Did you end up getting one of those Yantra tattoos hammered into your flesh?
Dylan Ogline: You know what? It was on my list this year to get one.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah?
Dylan Ogline: I didn’t in that trip. I want to. At the time I was still doing my sleeve, so I didn’t really know what was after, I didn’t know what I was going to do next. Now I’ve got a bunch of time since then, so I know I want to get one like in the middle of my back, which is the small one at the top.
Paul Greenamyer: Those are cool.
Dylan Ogline: What about you?
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah, I got one.
Dylan Ogline: You look like you’re all inked up. Oh you got one on your back, really?
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah, I got one of those in Thailand. But I mean it’s going to be too much of a contortion for me to show that to you right now.
Dylan Ogline: You’re not going to take off your clothes for me?
Paul Greenamyer: No, that’s later. That’s after we stop recording. But yeah, there’s a picture of the tattoo on my Instagram. But it’s really cool looking, it’s really painful.
Dylan Ogline: Why would I follow you?
Paul Greenamyer: Of course you don’t. But it’s really painful to get.
Dylan Ogline: I don’t follow anybody.
Paul Greenamyer: Okay. Why are you so difficult?
Dylan Ogline: It’s all about efficiency, baby. It’s all about being really efficient.
Paul Greenamyer: So what’s your goals when you pick a place to be for a long time? Because I know with Tim it was like language and physical discipline. And I do like to learn a little bit of the language, although I wouldn’t take a crack at Thai, I just wouldn’t. Like I can’t start on any Asian language. I don’t even have any of the romance languages.
Dylan Ogline: It’s brutal.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah.
Dylan Ogline: I know some Spanish because that was like the first couple countries. I hit up a lot of like Central America. So I did learn a little. I don’t remember any of the Thai, but when I was there I could mutter out of a few phrases. So my goal was more about just getting into the culture. Like that’s what it’s all about for me. I don’t necessarily like the language-learning. I want to experience living like a local. Like I don’t want to eat where the Americans eat or the Europeans eat when I’m in Asia. I want to eat like where are the Thai people eating. Like I want to eat at the dumpy restaurant that they’re eating at. The local restaurant. I want to stay like where they’re staying, not at the hotel.
Which I’ve only taken a couple trips, so far, that’s been that kind of travel. But going forward, post-COVID world, that is kind of my goal is to just really dive into, and I want to spend more time in certain cities. I know I mentioned like staying 30 days nonstop in Japan, going nonstop, so you really get to know the city, get to know the transit system, all that stuff. It gets to kind of feel almost like a second home.
Paul Greenamyer: Do you have like an avenue like a hobby or a discipline that you use to get into the local culture?
Dylan Ogline: I didn’t in Thailand, but I realized this like three days prior to leaving. Like two minutes from where I was staying was I think like the only hockey rink in Thailand.
Paul Greenamyer: Only hockey rink in Thailand.
Dylan Ogline: And I was like, “Oh my God, I would have loved to have actually played hockey with Thai people in Thailand.” Like that would have just been so cool. So when I was in Europe with my girlfriend most recently, like that wasn’t kind of an option. But I think if I go kind of longer term, post-COVID, I will go play hockey at that rink in the middle of Bangkok.
Paul Greenamyer: And one of the cool things about missing the chance to play hockey or get a tattoo, I try to get people to have a sense of abundance about travel. And that was particularly the case when I was flying to Turkey where like, “Well, won’t everything be closed?” And the answer was like, “Yeah, but I’ll just go back.”
Dylan Ogline: Yeah.
Paul Greenamyer: It’ll still be there. And at this point to not go is to just not go. Now, it’s more complicated than that, I ended up quarantining for several days after I got back until I got tested. There was definitely an opportunity cost to going, and I certainly learned a lot. But I think travel abundance is flying halfway around the world just for a dad joke just to say that you had Thanksgiving in Turkey.
Dylan Ogline: Oh, that’s good.
Paul Greenamyer: Like if you’re that much of an insolent prick with your travel, then you’re my kind of insolent prick.
Dylan Ogline: No, man, I 100% agree with that. A lot of people, we both I’m sure know people who have like never been outside the country. I can’t even imagine that. Or people who are like, “One day I want to go to Ireland and just drive around for like five days.” I’m like, “Five days? Like I want to go to Ireland and drive around for like three weeks.” And you’ve probably heard me talk about this. You’ve read “Vagabonding,” right? Have we talked about “Vagabonding”?
Paul Greenamyer: We’ve talked about “Vagabonding,” and I knew about it, but I have not read it.
Dylan Ogline: Oh dude, that’s pathetic. You need to go buy that book right now. Like once we’re done, once you take off your clothes, go buy that book. But at the beginning of the book, it tells the story of Bud Fox and “Wall Street,” the movie from the ‘80s.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah, I was just watching that.
Dylan Ogline: Really?
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah.
Dylan Ogline: That’s random.
Paul Greenamyer: The movie.
Dylan Ogline: Yeah, he’s saying, I thin he says like, “Gordon,” something along the lines of like his goal is to make enough money, retire, and go to China, and drive across China on a motorcycle. Like that’s goal. And in “Vagabonding” he uses that quote-- Rolf Potts I think is the author’s name-- he uses that quote and he says, “What Bud doesn’t realize is that you could scrub toilets in the United States and probably save enough money to go spend six months in China and drive across in a motorcycle.”
I think it’s more Boomers, the older generation weren’t really exposed to an abundance of travel. And once you change your perspective there, like I will go back to the place I’ve been before. I will. So like if I miss something there I’m not like all bummed it. I don’t have this glorious vision of travels that I’ve had because I’m like I will go back to those places or I will visit very similar places. Once you change that perspective, I think it’s really rewarding, and it just, I don’t know, I think it motivates you a little bit too. I don’t know, just there’s a lot to be said about hanging that perspective and viewing travel as an abundance and not like this far fledged vision. “Some day I’ll do that.” Like do it now.
Paul Greenamyer: I agree, and that’s a good note to end on, I think. So, Dylan, thank you so much for suffering through this annoying conversation with literally the most annoying guy that you’ve ever met in your life.
Dylan Ogline: Yeah, it’s the voice, the face.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah. I do tell people that I have a punchable voice.
Dylan Ogline: I like that. Yeah.
Paul Greenamyer: But very few people realize that I also have a punchable face. So, Dylan, how would you like people to follow-up with you? Because obviously you would rather die than have them follow you on Instagram.
Dylan Ogline: No, no, no. People can follow me on Instagram, it’s dylanogline.com. Or wait it’s not dylanogline.com.
Paul Greenamyer: Oh, oh, oh. They can follow you but not me? I get it. I see how it is.
Dylan Ogline: I only follow my girlfriend, so yeah.
Paul Greenamyer: Well, that’s not creepy at all.
Dylan Ogline: I follow one person. Yeah, it’s very stalkerish.
Paul Greenamyer: Yeah, people are just going to see the one on your Instagram profile and be like, “What is this person doing?”
Dylan Ogline: “This guy is so, so weird.” No, you can find me on Instagram, @dylanogline, if you’re interested in that, the Agency 2.0 thing that Paul was talking about, visit my website dylanogline.com.
Paul Greenamyer: Cool. Well, Dylan, I wish you all the best. I hope you get to Tokyo and to Japan very, very soon. And I hope that we are all on the road in a carefree kind of way very, very soon. And in fact, I have faith that it’s going to happen. I’m foolishly optimistic and I hope that you share some of that with me.
Dylan Ogline: 100%, man.
Paul Greenamyer: And I wish you all the success.
Dylan Ogline: Sure. Thank you, man.
Paul Greenamyer: All right, cool. I’m shutting this recording off.